Points rewards: possible changes
I'm thinking about changing the way points rewards work. Basically, the main change I'd like to make is switching it from what we have now, in which you accumulate points, to a system in which you spend points. So instead of building up lots of points and using milestones for rewards, you would use points to get rewards and then not have those points anymore. Having a lot of points wouldn't mean much except that you don't make requests.
One of the things this would allow me to do would be to offer a wider variety of rewards that you can "buy" with your points, like promotional bookmarks (yes, I have those) or cameos in the story. I would also like to add sources of points--one would definitely be donations, probably a point or two per dollar, and tweets/retweets of the updates another. Both of these changes would be retroactive, so everyone who has had a points story written to their request would have fifty points withdrawn from their account for each story. (That doesn't apply to the stories that were written as prizes for the riddling contest!) Everyone who has donated would also receive the appropriate amount of points added to their account.
Another thing I'm almost certainly going to do is increase the points required for a bonus story to at least 100 points. That won't apply to the bonus stories already requested and on the list, but I don't think it makes sense to have a long backlog of relatively cheap bonus stories when they're so much harder for me to write than story chapters. So if you have enough points and want a story, request now before I increase the requirement!
Any thoughts on this proposed new system? Have I explained it well enough so you can all understand it? I have some ideas for new points rewards, but I would love your input. Is there anything else you'd like to see from me? Suggestions for other ways for you to earn points are also welcome.
Comments
Good :)
Basically I think it is a good idea — except maybe for the value of the points and that twitter is included (I (personally) do not like it and will not get an account there).
I think equaling a simple retwit of an update with a post here is not really "fair" (in my opinion) – it is true that one spreads the word fast and wide – but that is only if enough people who are widely known / have a big audience participate. And the effort one puts into a retwit does definitely not measure up to that an average post needs...
Concerning the up on the points for the bonus story ... I am half way through to the next one (about 20 points left) – so, I think I would mind it a bit if you up it just before I am about to get the next one – but I think I will survive it :)
Concerning bookmarks (and other shipped bonus goods): Please consider that international shipping might be required (e.g. for FlowerGirl and me, etc.). I always do not like it if I have to save up more (or pay additional fees) than others just because I am not in the States – but it would be more for you to actually ship them – so that brings up a dilemma that you have to consider and solve / find a solution for.
Further suggestions:
- You could think about including Saturday chapters for points as well (maybe for a higher amount of points or whatever)
- Different stuff for points: wallpapers, the pdf-books, or parts of the books as pdf
- Earning points / stories by voting (if it is points that has to be accounted for somehow though - or if it is stories then you can say a certain amount of votes by the end of each month or a certain rank by the end of each month results in an extra (Saturday) update or the like)
So here are my thoughts :) — ...but it is you that have to make the final decision... — and I hope you like (at least some of) my suggestions :)
mjkj
International shipping
I don't see that being a problem. For one thing, you donate in euros, which are worth more than American dollars! But really, the bookmarks are only a little thicker than a regular piece of paper. I would have to be sending a lot at once for it to cost more than a stamp. I was thinking I would offer 3 for 10 points, so even if you spent 20 or 30 points I could just use one envelope.
Extra chapters for points is definitely going on the list. It will cost a lot of points though! I would offer wallpapers if I were good at art, but that's something that would take way more effort than I think would be worth it.
Voting is an interesting idea. Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to keep track of who has voted, since the TWF site is not connected to any login information. I could set it up so people got a point every time they voted, but I think that would really devalue points fast! I could try aiming for a certain amount of votes, though--that's a good idea.
OK
Ah, well, yes, bookmarks are on the safe side then :) *happy for that*
Yeah, I see the problem with the votes therefore my suggestion for a goal (to be defined by you) to be met through voting results in an action (also to be defined by you e.g. one extra update or some background information etc.)
mjkj
Must be a tough decision!
As for me, I'd be totally happy with just an extra chapter instead of a bonus story, for example. Mjkj is right, sending stuff to one of us is very expensive, and tweeting doesn't seem to cost as much energy as writing a post does. I am too lazy for twitter, and most of the time too tired to post anything worthwile, I'm sorry to say.
Whatever you come up with will be a good idea, though. And whoever decides to not like it - it's your time and your site and we are behind you :)
Edit: I also have trouble coming up with bonus-story-thingies, you know, what to ask you to write about. So a new system would totally be better for me ;)
I agree
I would also like to spend some of my points for extra updates — especially if it is easier for you :)
(...but of course it is up to you to allow that — or not...)
mjkj
Twitter
I don't want anyone to feel obligated to tweet for points--especially not people like you and mjkj who comment all the time! Maybe I could do something a little more difficult than just a retweet... say, one point for each person who retweets all three weekly updates? Does that sound fairer?
Yes :)
Yes, it does :)
mjkj
I think a new system is in
I think a new system is in order. I like the idea of getting Twitter points as I do occasionally talk about CC there. I don't recall what countries everyone is from, but I once sent a bar of soap to England in a regular envelope for 2 stamps. A bookmark wouldn't be that bad I imagine.
I like the idea of giving up our points in order to get bonuses because it seems like it'd be easier for us to keep track of what we haven't spent. But, as someone with a large amount of points to my name, I think I would like to have a points used thing on my profile so I could see how many I have accumulated since I've been here.
Points overview
That would be nice indeed ... both to know how much points I have to spend and how many I have accumulated in total ... if that is possible :)
mjkj
Keeping track
I don't think there's any way to show how many points you would have accumulated if I didn't take any away, but I'll look into it. I might be able to do something with categorization of points. I'll have to reread Gabriel Gadfly's posts on points in Drupal.
If you go into your profile and click "view" under "points," you can see all the points you've gotten and why (if you click on "insert" you'll be taken to the comment). Does that help?
True
You can also check them by clicking on the "my points" to the left. At the bottom (under the last ten points) it also shows a balance I just wonder if it will show also the points that were removed through purchases — we will have to see :D
mjkj
Oh yeah
That's the same thing as if you go to your profile and click on "points," but faster!
The balance is just that--how many points you have. It changes when you get or lose points. For example, my balance is 1 right now. If I didn't go in occasionally and remove points from myself, I would have way more points than anyone else!
Of course :)
You are the one that has to post most:
- most (all) of the (story) pages are posted by you
- you need to answer the occasional questions and comments
- nobody would try to compete with your accumulated points... :)
mjkj
Twitter
We had the discussion of Twitter posts vs. Forum comments re. Addergoole a while back (they're both work 1 point over there); the argument that made me keep them the same was, in essence - yes, a forum post takes more time/effort (sometimes; I've gotten forum posts less than 140 characters long), but a Tweet reaches a wider audience. Publicity vs. feedback.
~ Lyn
True. Actually, doesn't it
True. Actually, doesn't it take Clare more effort to get us those points? Imagine we'd all retweet the links, wouldn't it take a long time to give us all one silly point for that?
Yes
It would be a bit tedious. But I wouldn't mind!
Lyn!
What kind of bonus story would you like?
Buying Things
I definitely like the idea of using points to buy things, such as extra chapters as well as bonus stories. You could have a list available for people to choose from, and that way you have a bit of control over what you end up doing. For example, you could have a few different bonus story ideas of things you're happy to write about, and maybe write bits of them whenever you feel like it/have inspiration. Then, when someone chooses one for a reward, you might already have made a start, or even have finished it (depending on how long it takes people to earn enough points!).
You could also have different rewards costing more or less points, depending on how much extra effort it takes. If extra chapters are easier to write than bonus stories, then they could cost 50 points while bonus stories cost 100 points. Bookmarks could cost more or less, depending on how you're going to make them, postage etc. You could also have extra stories/chapters of differing length, so if it's a particularly long bonus story it might cost 200 points instead of 100 points or something, so people have the option of saving up their points for an extra-long story, or spending them quickly to get a quick story.
You can always adjust the points cost of rewards after trying the system out for a while - you don't want a great backlog of rewards requests because the points threshold is ridiculously low, but you want people to be able to claim a reward reasonably regularly.
Anyway, I know I already have a bonus story on the list, but I have enough points for another one so I might have to request one now before you increase the amount needed!
Rewards
"You could have a list available for people to choose from, and that way you have a bit of control over what you end up doing."
That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it would work... I would rather write the bonus stories you guys come up with, because your ideas are interesting! It's not that I don't want to write them, it's that I don't get around to it or I can't come up with specifics. Working on different ideas would have to wait until I've finished the list I already have, anyway!
"You could also have different rewards costing more or less points, depending on how much extra effort it takes."
Yes, that's exactly the plan. Like I said, the bookmarks (which I already have made) will cost 10 points for 3.
I can't really decide beforehand how long to make bonus stories, though. The Muse doesn't work that way. And it might be easier to write a long one than a short one, depending on the story!
Bookmarks?
Ten points for three bookmarks? I'd say most, if not all, of us would be just as happy spending fifty points or something, you know. :)
Yes, arguing with us takes lots of time and it seems like we all are okay with (much) higher tresholds.
Maybe it could be different: for your first ever 50 points, you get a bonus story (for example) and then for the rest you get a higher treshold, or something like that. Anybody?
By the way: a friend lent me the hitchhiker's guide. This version is over 800 pages, it's almost midnight here, who wants to bet I won't sleep tonight? :)
OK...
25 points? I want it to be a cheaper reward!
I think changing the amounts would just get confusing. Besides, that makes it sound like you would have to get something with your first however-many points, instead of deciding in your own time what you want to get.
That's such a great book! Is it the version that I have, with all five books plus a short story about Zaphod?
Even cheaper?
You wouldn't have any time left to sleep :P don't do that, sleeping's supposed to be good for you!
It would get confusing, that's true. But the idea would be something like this for a new user:
25 points for your first bonus story (since it's still an incentive then, it might be scary to get started on the forum?)
100 points for every next one, or with a different quotient. At that point it should just be something extra and no longer a real incentive to get used to everything (I just had a language class that droned on and on and on so I was thinking about it and started comparing it to having extra activities to get the first-years used to university life)
Yes, I think it's the same one. It starts with "some unhelpful remarks from the author" or something like that (I was smart enough to not bring it to classes today). I like it already and the writing is not so hard. Yay!
Cheaper
The cheaper reward is the bookmarks! Mailing doesn't take very long ;)
Do you think being able to get a bonus story more easily would really encourage new people to comment more? I'm not sure it would help much. It's not like the story would actually be posted that quickly.
That's true, but it might
That's true, but it might work. Or perhaps they could skip in line or something. I don't know. But you could check with IP-adresses if it's not the same person just registering twice, right?
Cheating...
Cheating is not nice ... and should not be encouraged - therefore I think Clare's approach is right: for everybody the same amount for the same thing - but different "priced" bonuses available.
I would suggest:
- low points (e.g. 25): short story / short bonus story / short extra update (e.g. 300 words)
- medium points (e.g. 50): medium length of the above (e.g. 1000 words)
- high points (e.g. 100): long ... (e.g. 2500 words)
(the word and point count are just samples - not actual suggestions)
mjkj
Like I said...
I can't decide beforehand how long a story will be. All bonus stories will cost the same amount of points, and they'll be however long they are.
Ok...
Ok, that is fine with me also :)
mjkj
Story Lengths
Yeah, obviously you can't really predict ahead of time what length a story will be! That's why I meant that people could choose from stories you'd already written, so therefore you'd already know their length and could assign points costs accordingly. If you like the ideas people come up with, you could always have a "Story Suggestions" thread or a poll or something. I know it's all a bit in the future anyway, seeing as you already have quite a few bonus stories queued up :) And I know that means writing stories in advance might not work, since you already have a backlog! It was just a suggestion that I thought might make it easier for both you and the people choosing their reward :D Whatever happens, I'll be happy since you're telling us stories for free, even without points rewards!
Agreed
I really have to agree to that :)
Free quality stories that are really good *is happy* :)
mjkj
Infrequent commenters?
I would really love to hear from people who don't comment very often or who aren't registered with the site! If there's something that would make you comment more or register, let me know!
Answer to Points... again
Ok, since Points... again does not allow comments I thought posting here is better:
At the moment (including this post) I have:
fairy gold points Balance: 338
dead leaves points Balance: 150
When I had posted this post it said:
"User mjkj earned 1 points Total now is 338 points."
The amount displayed at the left frame column reads:
mjkj's points
You have 84 points
I think that is not the right amount (the last point).
The points balance is like:
150 Approved 02/14/2010 - 8:03pm admin dead leaves None
335 Approved 02/14/2010 - 8:03pm admin fairy gold None
-404 Approved 02/14/2010 - 8:02pm admin uncategorized None
(+ the three points I posted tonight)
What the left-side points display says is like:
- "dead leaves points" + "fairy gold" - 404 = 150 + 338 - 404 = 84 points
instead of:
- just "fairy gold" = 338 points
- or "fairy gold" + "dead leaves points" = 338 + 150 = 488 points
or if you wanted to display the amount of spendable points:
- "fairy gold" + "dead leaves points" - "already spent points" = 338 + 150 - 400 = 88
Maybe you wanted it to be like the last point and just had a typo so instead of 400 points you subtracted 404 points...
What would be nice would be something like a state in-between "fairy gold" and "dead leaves points" like "spent fairy gold" or "pending dead leaves" or maybe "live leaves" or whatever you like, for already spent points for which the reward has not yet been received.
For example:
- I have a total of 488 points - I have already spent 400 points on bonus stories when they still were 50 points each - that would make it 88 points that I have left to spend: also 88 "fairy gold"
- I have already received 3 bonus stories when they still were 50 points each - that would make it 150 points: also 150 "dead leaves"
- there is still 5 bonus stories left that you still need to write and 250 points I cannot spend anymore: also 250 "spent fairy gold" or "pending dead leaves" or "live leaves"
So you would have to move the points for accepted stories from the "fairy gold" to "spent fairy gold" (or "pending dead leaves" or "live leaves" or whatever you choose to name them) and if you publish it to "dead leaves" (if that is not too much...)
mjkj
.
PS: If you think that there is too much information displayed here for the public feel free to edit this post accordingly. :)
Too many numbers!
All I wanted was this:
150 Approved 02/14/2010 - 8:03pm admin dead leaves None
335 Approved 02/14/2010 - 8:03pm admin fairy gold None
-404 Approved 02/14/2010 - 8:02pm admin uncategorized None
And it doesn't matter now, anyway, because I'm going to reset the points and then put them back.
"What would be nice would be something like a state in-between "fairy gold" and "dead leaves points" like "spent fairy gold" or "pending dead leaves" or maybe "live leaves" or whatever you like, for already spent points for which the reward has not yet been received."
Not going to happen. Way too much work. Like it says on the Points page, points will move from fairy gold to dead leaves when the reward happens.
Ok...
...it was worth a suggestion though :)
Ok, my points seem to be at the right amount now (489). Thank you.
mjkj
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